DEI Insights for Global Organizations

This is Becoming Inclusive from The Kaleidoscope Group, where we’re thinking differently about diversity, equity, and inclusion. For more empowered people at work. We’re committed to real change and that begins with real conversations. Welcome in.

This conversation has been lightly edited for clarity.

Thanks for joining us, and a special thanks to our subscribers. Consider becoming one today. Becoming Inclusive is presented by The Kaleidoscope Group, your full-service Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion partner serving clients worldwide. Learn more and continue the conversation and kgdiversity.com

Reggie Ponder  

Welcome to another edition of Becoming Inclusive. I’m your host, Reginald Ponder, and I’m here with my co-host, Katherine Potts. Kat, it’s good to see you today.

Katherine Potts  

Hey, Reg, long time no talk.

Reggie Ponder  

Well, speaking of talking, one of the things that I love is that we get to talk to so many interesting people and have these different entry points into the subject of Becoming Inclusive. And today we have Flor Garcia who is the global DEI consultant, engagement leader, and subject matter expert for The Kaleidoscope Group. Hey, Flor, how are you?

Flor García  

Hello, Reggie. Hello, Kat. How are you today? Hey, so excited to be here with you two.

Reggie Ponder  

We are excited to have you. And, Flor, you know, we had a discussion offline talking about so many things. And from our discussion offline, I came up with this title called, there’s no such thing as a universal language. And before I get to you, I kind of want to frame it out just a little bit, is that we always talk about companies doing these things called cookie-cutter approaches. So you come to a company and they say, Oh, I got a solution for that I have a solution for that. And when we’re talking just the United States, we understand this concept that there’s no such thing as a universal language because we speak the same, do the same act the same, even with companies that have the same problem, we are not going to be effective. And so I like the fact that companies have started to recognize this here in the United States. But because you get to see things from a global perspective, we’re going to expand that conversation to talk about this from a global perspective, looking at other companies and different countries. And you gave me this, you gave us Kat and myself this example of just words. And we were like, well, how so? And one of the words that you talked about was this word curious.

Reggie Ponder  

So I’m curious. Yeah. Well, how would that word be different?

Flor García  

Yes. You know, Reggie and Kat, that was something that really got me because I work for a nonprofit, where I serve as a volunteer. And during the discussions, several discussions that we have for our values, one of the values that we came up with was curiosity. We wanted to always be curious, curious, related to learning here is related to always being open to other people’s experiences and growing from it, you know, from what we learn from each other. This is a global organization. So I was sitting there with people from the United States, myself, I’m from Venezuela, there were people from different countries in Europe, and also a couple of members from South East Asia. And one of the members brought up the fact that curiosity sounds so appealing, and so positive to us here in America, in the United States, maybe in the English language, but from her perspective, in her language, and in her culture, someone curious was someone nosy, someone wanted to, to know everything, but in a  negative connotation. So she had a strong reaction against this war as one of our rallies, and any click, they do realize that sometimes we believe that the words and the meanings that the terms have in our languages kind of mean the same for everyone.

Katherine Potts  

Right, right. And to be fair, with that example, I feel like you know, in the US, sometimes we use the word curious, you know, to kind of as a mirage, to actually be nosy. So there’s, you know, there’s also some truth in how that word is even used here. And I can understand where it can, have a different meaning different impact somewhere else. And that impact is what’s important when we’re talking about there not being a universal language.

Reggie Ponder  

And the reason I’m really happy that we talk about this is that when we talk about Becoming Inclusive, we have to understand that words matter and And sometimes people will say, well, well, well, well, Potato, potato, tomato, tomato. So why are you? Why are you splitting hairs over this? But well, particularly when we’re talking about cross cultural? And from a global perspective, it really, really matters. Would you say, Flor?

Flor García  

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Because, as you said, war matters. And we’re using words, to convey a message. In this case, we’re values in my in the values of the organization. And we want the members, the board, the people that join, to feel, identify, you know, with these values and to act in a way that they honor the values of the organization. So imagine that as a company, as an organization, we are using words that don’t resonate with everyone in the same way. Right? We need to be curious, we need to learn about that we need to, to realize that we need to take into consideration the different nuances, right language has.

Katherine Potts  

And I think even if you’re if your goal is to diversify your company, even down to your handbook, what, you know, your handbook, your onboarding, is, does this make sense for everyone? And I think those are some places where that’s sometimes neglected. And it can make sense why some people often don’t understand what’s going on, or sometimes don’t even read those things that had just a basic level because it means something totally different to them, or it’s not impacting them the same way.

Reggie Ponder  

Flor, because you speak several languages, If I were using the word curiosity, how would that translate in Spanish?

Flor García  

In Spanish, it has a positive connotation. Actually, we use it as someone that is ready to learn. You know, when I said, uncool, uncurious is someone that is always eager to grow, eager to find out more. That’s why at that moment, during that discussion, he didn’t resonate with me, and in German is also a positive thing. 

Reggie Ponder  

In German, it would be what word? Being German.

Flor García  

It would be someone that is a Nordic or someone that is yes. Curious, eager to learn. It will be the thing in this.

Reggie Ponder  

How would you say that in German? Because I’m pressing on that? Oh, my

Flor García  

God, I love it. Yes. It is called neugierig, how to pronounce it. Yeah, yeah. I can tell you many, but for example, they very CP feel file or diversity add on.

Reggie Ponder  

I love it. Since we have you on I could not resist at least hearing you in these different languages, particularly because we’re talking about it globally. One of the things when we talk about globally, we look here at the United States. And we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I think, for the most part, people understand it, even though there’s still some pushback on all three of those words, but from my understanding, globally, they don’t always translate Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. Diversity in that it doesn’t look the same every place so when we started talking about diversity, it might be gender diversity, as opposed to racial diversity. And so there are some different things that come to play there. So firstly, I want to talk to you just about diversity. from a global perspective. Does that look how does that look? And what have you seen in terms of its appearance in different countries?

Flor García  

Yes, absolutely. Reggie, it looks very different for me, the more we deep dive into global organizations as consultants and the more we realize that everyone needs to bring diversity to their workforce and the workplace. We realize that diversity means different things in different places of the world. And I think that this is something that we are as consultants at KG doing pretty well because now we have expanded our focus as you said, it’s about expansion, you know, expanding our thoughts, from approaches that are more us focus to that global aspect of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, and yes, like you said, maybe when we think about diversity here in the United States, our minds go straight to race, gender and age. But then when you go to other areas of the world, diversity encompasses several, several dimensions, and maybe that race is not one of them. So yeah, and so what would you say about equity?

Katherine Potts  

Because I mean, the E and D. And I mean, that got added domestically, the US got added in there too. So, and here, that’s still something not everybody understands. I mean, there are those images we show equity is misunderstood still here in the States. So I can only imagine that abroad, there’s that probably something similar?

Flor García  

Yes, absolutely. We have seen that we clients in Europe, as well, because it’s like when I mentioned the IE, they mean equality. And when we got a beep, and it’s our talking and discussions about equity. Even we have experience with one client that decided to take the E out of the equation and say, Hey, let’s just do diversity and inclusion. Because equity had become such a challenging work, especially in France, where equality is the word of preference, because he makes sense, you know, is allowing everyone to do something to grow.

Katherine Potts  

So that makes me think so when you think of that in terms of like, inclusion, right versus equity. And I don’t want to go too far left on this, it just makes me think of the privilege aspect because a lot of equity is also rooted in how are you using your privilege to help create equity for other people? So how does that translate if we’re leaving that out, you know, in other countries, or do you see that or, you know, how does that work?

Reggie Ponder  

Before you answer that Flor, is that like, does the word diversity, really start to grate on people? Anytime you would say diversity to people, is it like, oh, here we go. We’re talking about that again. And so we had to try to dimensionalize diversity, so that people when you saw the word, just didn’t have that neck reaction? That kind of reaction. Is that similar? I wanted to throw that in, in your answer to Kat is that similar in some regard when you talk about equity?

Flor García  

Yes, yes. And what is very important to highlight Reggie and Kat is that many times we hear that is an American term. So we need to really highlight that we are creating a value journey that is tailor-made that is going to take into consideration all those global nuances. And because once we use those three words, those three terms he generates, he creates a reaction, oh, this is an American thing.

Reggie Ponder  

Yep. And so when in and I think what I’m picking up here, is that this American thing is not necessarily that it’s a is anti-American, but that is saying that you have not paid attention to my culture, to my problems, to my situation to my environment, would you say?

Flor García  

Yes, absolutely. Wretched. That’s what they tell us. I don’t think that you have their dry strategy for us. No, because they are American is because they immediately say the reality in the United States is completely different to the one that we’re living here. Right. And then as the question, you know, tell me more.

Katherine Potts  

Yeah. And that’s where I feel like at KG, it’s like, it has to be customized, you know, it’s just like, there’s not one universal language, there’s not a one size fits all for this. And even when companies are looking at this abroad, you can’t look at it like that. You can’t look at it narrow, right? Because there are so many nuances. And I think that’s sometimes what can get a little mixed up, because you’re like, let’s just do this, let’s just check this box. But it’s so nuanced. And what I’m hearing you say it’s, even if you’re an American based company, if you have, you know, colleagues abroad, you have to consider those things. You can’t just think because of your main hubs in the US that you don’t need to consider how you’re sort of attacking your DE&I initiative in a global way.

Reggie Ponder  

I hear people say, so when I hear you say that, and I’m an American, I’m gonna say this Flor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ve heard this before, oh, the countries are different or whatever. But we still have this tendency to think that our way is the best way. So from a global perspective, how do you get across this issue? I think this is what Kat was getting at. How do you get across this issue to talk about equity without talking about equity?

Flor García  

Yes. I think the most important part and this is what we do is just to listen that’s what I told you about the “Tell me more.” When you have that reaction about equity for example. Tell me more. What does what why does a restaurant With your way, you’re reacting this way. And they always bounce back to equality. Or, well, we are talking about equal opportunities for everyone, we have been doing this for ages, this might be something new in the United States, but we have done it is part of our national anthem, you know, you receive all these comments, and we start picking apart or taking apart the pieces, knowing about a way for just noticing what things mean equality for this client, or for this culture, and then how we relate into equity. And one big surprise is that many of the things that they consider equality are why we see equity. So it’s just to breed them there, you know, is how we bring them how we close the gap in a way that we can have the II work in your favor for the organization. And it’s magical, the transformation when you see how we can navigate together these terms, even vision across differences, and how we make it happen.

Becoming Inclusive is presented by The Kaleidoscope Group, your full service, diversity, equity, and inclusion partner serving clients worldwide, we can help you develop organizational change that actively engages everybody in your organization, turning resistance into energy and motivation for change. Let’s talk about where you’d like to go and how to get there. Start with a visit to kgdiversity.com.

Reggie Ponder  

Because here in the States, when you talk about those two words, equality and equity, they to get people really revved up, you know,

Katherine Potts  

Dumped to stumped. They’re like they don’t you put on the same together and people are like, wait, what? Like, yeah, you don’t even see that? You know, they see people stumble on those two.

Reggie Ponder  

Yes. And so do you see? So you’re from Venezuela, right? Yeah. And so do you see when you talk about equity and equality? Is there a difference there? Yeah, Venezuela? 

Flor García  

No, we use equality, like for everything encompassing even equity.

Reggie Ponder  

Then from a German perspective, do you see a difference there as well?

Flor García  

Almost similar to when we define it. When you ask a German client, define or tell me more about what equity means to you. The definition is very similar to equality is almost the same. And that’s why I know that you broke the Spanish aspect in Venezuela. I studied law. And when I went to law school, we will define equality. And the definition that even we have to learn in Latin don’t maybe repeat in Latin bliss. We needed to learn any Latin, he was pretty much incompetency, the aspects of equity as well. Wow, this so far, in Venezuela, we don’t at that equity, doesn’t resonate, like the value the meaning that we want to put here in the United States.

Reggie Ponder  

So what I’m taking away from this discussion, because we started off, I’m so glad Kat that you brought it back in is that there’s really no such thing as a universal language. And we’re not talking about it from the languages that we speak as much as we’re talking about from the concepts that we use is that the way in which those concepts manifest themselves is not universal.

Katherine Potts  

Yes, I think that yeah, I think that and I know I’ve used the word impact a couple of times. But I’m saying that because our intention can be, for example, we really want you to understand equity, we really want to get that, that’s the word to go with, but, but the impact isn’t going to align with that. And that’s what’s important. Our intentions can be great. Hey, we really want you to understand this word, or this is the right word. But you can’t really do that, because it’s not hitting the same.

Flor García  

Yes, yes, Kat, you have you had just made me think, we get so stuck in the word in the term. We need to step back and look and see how can I if what you understand is equality. I don’t want to prove you’re wrong. That’s not my first step. I don’t want to be right, I want to join efforts with you, and show you a journey that is gonna have equity there. And then maybe along the journey, I’m gonna tell you, hey, remember when we talk about equity? This is equity right here. You know, is just a step-by-step is, is a journey that is organic and evolves. So maybe we will begin with actions that we’re able to go to that term and be able to define it all together.

Reggie Ponder  

And what I’m also getting from this Flor is that We may never ever come back to the word equity. Because as long as the things that undergird equity are there. Who cares whether you call it a tomato or tomato? Is that that what we’re really trying to do is move people along from along that journey. And if those pillars are there doesn’t matter what you call it, equity or equality as long as they’re there. I think the reason that there’s always been this delineation between the two is that I really like the fact that people talk about how, when we treat everybody equally, does not necessarily mean that it’ll get everybody to the same spot. Exactly. Yes. And that, that thinking still needs to be somewhere within in the work in which you do, I would think,

Flor García  

Yes, absolutely. That’s what I was telling you that you kind of we kind of as consultants move them there with their journey. And you said something that is so powerful ready is that maybe we don’t come back to the work. But once you see your client, showing the behaviors, that means to be living equity, sadly, then he’s like, okay, my job is done. I’m gonna give you both an example we created a presentation, a journey that was in Spanish, and the title at the beginning look too long, where we wanted to translate coalitions inclusion roadmap for diversity, equity, and inclusion. So what we did, as consultants in Spanish native speakers, was to sit down and say, how we bring something that gets attention, you know, to this level of organization, how do we get these workers to feel it? That doesn’t sound so scientific. And so, so we said, it translated to English, it was something like the path to inclusion. We just brought it down. The path to inclusion includes being diverse and respecting diversity, the path to inclusion also, means that equity that we are, we are talking here, but we brought it to the language that our people are really our clients were meant to understand, you know, and that’s why the translation was so beautiful. In the beginning, it was like, Oh, my God, we’re variables. We’re changing the name of this education roadmap. But then we said, it is what it means in this language. And this is the way, to bring it to the client. 

Katherine Potts  

And I think that’s been really outcome-focused, right?

Reggie Ponder  

Yeah. And what I love about the example is that a lot of times when we talk about this on this show. People might walk away and say, Well, how does that tie into Becoming Inclusive? And you, you just helped me with that tremendously. And I think the number one thing that I believe is a I take away from this is I, well, how do we do it? And you said, well, the number one thing we do is listen, the number one thing we do is listen, and then we’re not trying to get people to get to our point of view. We’re trying to understand their point of view to help move them along to help the whole organization as opposed to being like, Well, I think this is the right way. And this is the way to go. But listening and I’m listening to you see that. See, see how I got that?

Katherine Potts  

At least he listens to you, Flor? LOL

Flor García  

Yeah, I see. Yes. Kat, you mentioned something that I don’t want to let go, not to pass is the privilege. And that brought me again to this example of the journey that was preparing the Spanish for workers. It was a group of maintenance workers, people that worked in the field or in the property knowing their offices. And I realize no, no, everyone has the privilege or the vantage point of having heard about diversity, equity, and inclusion in the way that those three words really mean. You know, sometimes you see it in the media you see as a very two polarizing or three polarizing words. But not everyone can have the opportunity. So when I’m inviting you to training or when you tell your people, your members, your employees, hey, you have to do this training. And you see these three words, is sounding there and you don’t have an idea what he said. Yes, you can learn it during the learning process, but what I mean is, it is much easier when you read something, even the title words speak to you, you know when I bring a message that I can be conveyed in the language that you are going to understand me, and then we move together to another powerful. Yeah,

Reggie Ponder  

I say, Flor, then you want to bring in this, this whole concept of privilege. I know Kat started, but you want to talk about privilege? And you know, that is a two-hour conversation.

Flor García  

And yes, I guess pulling myself back.

Katherine Potts  

Yes, I didn’t want to go too far left, but it really got me thinking, me thinking about privilege and in terms, of language and how the language.

Flor García  

First of all, ladies, because you know, and I and again, this was one project that I have within KG, as a KG Consultant that really impacted me because the initial idea was to just translate the material. When we sat down and listened to the client, and realize that the audience needed more than a simple translation, they needed something to be at the peak, you know, spoke to them about something that they, you could say, get it, then that’s when this project started. And it wasn’t a translation of the journey was just made it everything, adjusting everything custom to that audience that we have.

Reggie Ponder  

This really resonates with me, Flor. I used to work in advertising and when we would do things from an English perspective, then we will run to try to figure out how to have it translated from a Spanish perspective. And the Spanish creatives will always come back to us and say, you should have had us in the planning process. Because the way we might say it, the way we might approach it would have been different. But because now you’re done with the commercial, you’re finished, and we have to translate it. It’s harder, because there’s not a one-to-one necessarily all the time, and even some of the situations like maybe the way you pass the drink, or what you said when you pass the drink might be a little bit different. And so why not just have us in the creation process. And that is becoming inclusive.

Flor García  

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s, that’s one of the best pieces right now, in the global practice within KG, is that we have realized that for this DEI journey, the global nuances need to be considered from the beginning is all we bring a journey, a roadmap, I study and they say, Oh, how we can adjust it to Asia or Africa or the European continent? No, let’s work together from the beginning. So it’s ready to go and resonates globally but is tailored locally. 

Katherine Potts  

I have an example that you’re both, you’re making me think of. I know, we have to wrap it up soon. But it just made me think of this when I’m watching a movie on Netflix that is was it a Spanish movie, right. They have these voiceovers that are in English. And I’m watching it. And what is most distracting to me is that the voiceovers are not matching the passion. And the message that was initially trying to be conveyed. So I have a hard time with that. But I’m saying this because the point is just translating isn’t enough. That’s all that’s happening is just translating at the most basic level is not enough.

Reggie Ponder  

Yeah. And I like that Kat. And sometimes you can’t avoid it. So I just watched a movie called Parallel Mothers. And oh, yes. Fantastic. Fantastic movie. So Flor, if you saw the movie, you know that the English translation did not do it justice, no justice to the film. I know a little bit of Spanish and I could tell a couple of times where now that didn’t sync up. And so you can’t help that. I mean, because you do want other people to watch the movie. So I’m really glad that they put the subtitles and figured that out. So sometimes you can’t figure that out. Because there’s not a one-to-one, but when you can or do a better job from a creation perspective. I’m glad that the movie, by the way, started in Spanish so we didn’t have to try to translate the other way. But what a wonderful movie. I saw you chomping at the bit. 

Flor García  

I am a big fan of Almodovar movies, Parallel Mother’s, Broken Embraces, and I always tell my kids you need to watch. Well, they’re already teenagers 18 & 17. But I tell them, you need to watch it in Spanish, the passion, the dialogue, the message, the power, you feel it in the language that the director and this crew meant for it to be.

Katherine Potts  

Yeah, I find myself not being able to understand a thing. But I rather watch it in the language, the native language, because I just feel it. I just feel it more. But I might not understand one word.

Flor García  

You know, this brings me to the title of this podcast. There is no such thing as a universal language. And I think that as organizations, and right now I’m speaking to the audience to the public. And also I’m thinking like a consultant, we need to be very intentional and mindful, to think globally, to think about the accessibility of the language we use. And even when we think that diversity, equity, and inclusion are universal words, that everyone understands the same, that they need the same for everyone in every corner of the world. That is not the reality. 

Reggie Ponder  

That’s really the last word, but I can’t let you leave. I can’t let you leave without giving us, because we’re talking about, Becoming Inclusive. So I need you to give us the last word in Spanish, please.

Flor García  

Oh, yes, absolutely. Oh, do you want what inclusion is very similar? inclusion. Inclusion, Diversity, that icky that those are the three terms? Yeah. Okay. They’re here. Yeah.

Katherine Potts  

I mean, I could go on and on, you’ve inspired so much thought for me, I wish we had like an hour, two hours, you’ll have to come back on because honestly if I speak anymore, we’ll be on here longer because my mind is like now going in different directions about different things. And even at an emotional level, where do you meet people, what are we getting at. Where are people, like meeting people where they are that whole thing? So you don’t want to give it back to me, because we’ll be on here for a while longer.

Flor García  

We were gonna leave you with the last word.

Reggie Ponder  

I will take the last word to say that I guess Flor you and I need to talk offline about Parallel Mothers because it was terribly interesting. And I love to get your thoughts. But I love that you gave us your thoughts on that. There’s no such thing as a universal language. Thank you so much for joining us joining Kat myself on Becoming Inclusive. And we will have you back again. I’m Reginald Ponder. That’s Katherine Potts, and that is Flor Garcia. We’ll see you all next time.

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for joining us and a special thanks to our subscribers. Consider becoming one today. Becoming Inclusive is presented by The Kaleidoscope Group, your full-service Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion partner serving clients worldwide. Learn more and continue the conversation and kg diversity.com