Why Diversity Isn’t Enough

This is Becoming Inclusive from The Kaleidoscope Group, where we’re thinking differently about diversity, equity, and inclusion. For more empowered people at work. We’re committed to real change and that begins with real conversations. Welcome in.

Reggie Ponder
Well, you and I get a chance to occasionally have these offline conversations. And I’m so glad that we’re going to have this discussion. And this discussion is why diversity is not enough. But before we get to why it’s not enough, I want to ask you to help us define diversity. In your mind, when we say diversity because the word diversity in many ways has become kind of maligned, almost a curse word for some people. What’s diversity?

Chris Georgas
I think it’s kind of simple, diversity is a collection. And, you know, the combination of all things. And so oftentimes, when I talked to people about that, the term and the value of it, it’s really, you know, just taking a look around the table, and seeing who you have and who you don’t and getting strategic on how to make sure that you become complete.

Reggie Ponder
This is really interesting, you said, two things that I want to follow up on. One is who you have and who you don’t, and then the other one is becoming complete. I’m going to start with the complete one first. Some people will say, I’m already complete. Are you saying that what I bring, what our team brings to the table, is not enough? Our business is doing well, we’re making our goals? We’re one of the best in the industry, and then you’re saying that we’re not complete?

Chris Georgas
I think you’ve heard the saying, two truths existing at the same time? Absolutely. I think, you know, you set goals and targets, companies meet them, or they don’t, or they exceed them. But at the end of the day, I think we all know, anybody or anything can always be better. And at the end of the day, I’ve seen diversity. I’ve been doing this for almost 30 years. Diversity is that asset, it is that driver to help anything and everything be better and be better because of the diversity. When people come together, they work together, they collaborate together, it’s always about creating a synergy that didn’t exist before. So yeah, can people produce outcomes? Can they achieve goals? Can they do it with people who are similar to them? Sure, they can. But I can tell you, and the research is there. And I’ve seen it time and time again, in my own organization, as well as with the clients that we’ve worked with, that at the end of the day, when you’ve got a lot of different backgrounds, and you’ve got a lot of different lenses around the table that are really maximized, you’re going to have greater results, hands down greater results.

Reggie Ponder
See, sometimes I believe that, and sometimes I don’t. So I have 10 brothers and sisters, as you know, and sometimes I don’t want to talk to all 10 of those people. I want to just go and get the work done. And I’m using that as an example from a business perspective. So how do you reconcile that thought?

Chris Georgas
Nowhere in that conversation did I say it was easy. And so what I’m hearing you say is, sometimes it ain’t easy dealing with my 10 brothers and sisters. And that’s the truth. And so the truth is also, you know, true on the other side, that exists on the other side, for organizations to really do this, they have to be intentional, they have to be really purposeful. And they have to see it as a driver, and a true driver for the organization to be better because of it. And because of what it’s trying to achieve and where it’s headed. So when you get intentional with it and not reactive to it. And when you really think about it as something that’s going to bring value, then yeah, you’re going to see the results. If you’re doing it because you’re told it’s the right thing to do or because everybody else is doing it – so now you want to get on and kind of check a box. Your outcomes are going to be low and your return on your investment is going to be low. So it’s all about how you think about it, how you position it, and how you maximize it.

Reggie Ponder
One of the things that I think about Chris, and you said that the data is there when women aren’t at the table, you said this whole issue about who’s not there. We’ve seen some research that says that when women are at the table when you have one, your business increases, when you have two it really increases. Talk about that a little bit, because I think that people are like, yeah, right. Sure. Sure it does, just because you have a woman’s perspective that the business increases?

Chris Georgas
Again, you’d have to look at specific data-specific industry-specific products, solutions, and things of that nature. I’m not really going to get into that, but it is out there. But at the end of the day, you know, women are many times very different than men, sometimes they’re similar, but sometimes they’re different. And sometimes, we assign certain, you know, behaviors and traits to men and women that at the end of the day, we really shouldn’t be. It starts with having different genders. But at the end of the day, it really should be about how do you make sure you’ve got all different types of styles, you’ve got all different types of backgrounds, and you’ve got all different types of thought processes, really represented on your team, so that you really can be amply effective.

Reggie Ponder
I love this, Chris. And I like the fact that you brought up this thing about that men and women can be similar. So we hear this a lot from an all-white male group, for instance, they’ll say, “well, we’re diverse, we don’t come from the same places.” So why would we need to have this different type of diversity? Because I’m offended, actually, that you say that we’re not diverse because I come from the city and I come from the country and I come from a well-to-do family. So we have diversity here. But you’re discounting that.

Chris Georgas
And I would say that it’s not enough. And I’m never discounting anything, I think everything has a starting point. And the good news is that if companies have taken the time to think about other attributes beyond race, and gender, for backgrounds that they want on their teams, that’s a great first start, let’s celebrate that. Now let’s make that even more meaningful. Let’s make that even more tangible and add other dimensions to that, and continue to grow that practice. And that lens of improving and bringing even more diversity than what you’re starting with or where you are now. So I look at everything as a starting point, not necessarily good or bad, although some people want to apply that kind of lens, I don’t know that it’s always helpful. I think it’s really about growth and opportunity and change, and ultimately value.

Reggie Ponder
So how have you seen diversity help companies yourself? Not from the data, but how have you seen diversity help organizations?

Chris Georgas
I’ve seen diversity help organizations, and I’ve seen diversity help communities. I’ve seen it both ways, internally, and I’ve seen the external effects. And I think internally, there’s a lot of ways I think it’s helped cultures evolve, change and get better. I think it’s helped productivity, ultimately increase and be enhanced. I think it’s helped marketplace and organizations maximize marketplace opportunities, new markets, emerging markets. And you know, there’s a lot of data that supports that when companies have gotten intentional. And I think, you know, the only other point, that I would also make, is that sometimes it’s not that for you to be better, you had to be bad. Sometimes you could be really good and become really great. So there are a lot of lenses and a lot of indicators to look at it. And ultimately I think I use the word earlier, intentionality being purposeful. That’s what this is really about, you know, what are you really trying to create? How are you defining success? What’s your vision? And then from there, how does diversity become that lever, that asset, to help you get from where you are, to where you want to be?

Reggie Ponder
Before we get into why diversity is not enough. This whole issue of honoring diversity, honoring these different perspectives, which is not necessarily easy for organizations to do, because they have a structure or culture, what’s your perspective on that?

Chris Georgas
Well, I think a couple of things. One, when organizations go down the road of labels, or this is what works for this group, or this is what works for that group. I actually see that being an ineffective strategy, because within groups are a lot of individuals, who at the end of the day, actually are very different. But we like to, I think for comfort sake, group people together. I think that’s the first mistake.

The second thing is, as organizations think about how to maximize and bring people on and make sure that perspectives are heard, you have to bump those perspectives up against what is the value of the organization? What does the organization stand for? What is it ultimately trying to achieve? Could there be situations where people come in, and they’re looking for something different, or they want something different from the organization than what it has to offer? Yeah, that’s probably very possible. And maybe they’re just not a fit for each other. So it’s really making sure that at the end of the day, as an organization, you know, what you stand for, you put that stake in the ground, you vetted that stake in the ground with a wide array of input so that it can be as inclusive as it needs to be for what you’re trying to achieve. And then you’re hiring and retaining talent for and against that.

Reggie Ponder
Okay, so here we go, Chris. Now we have diversity, we have diversity in our organization. Why isn’t that enough?

Chris Georgas
Well, because if it’s being maximized, maybe it can be, but the truth of the matter is, so many organizations, think about it from a quote-unquote, butts and seat perspective. I have so many of them, and I got a lot of them. When you take that kind of approach, and you think that’s the end, the end place, or the outcome, that’s really not getting you where you want to be from an organization perspective, nor is it 99% of the time serving that talent well, because, at the end of the day, your goal was to kind of get them in the door, it really oftentimes wasn’t meant to help them achieve their potential, and helping talent achieve their potential of all backgrounds, not just certain ones. But all backgrounds are where people win, an organization wins. And so that really is a really instrumental component for an organization to think about how to maximize talent and to ultimately be successful and impactful with this work.

Reggie Ponder
So this is an important issue, you hear a lot about companies getting people in the door. But then it seems like it’s a revolving door. So since diversity is not enough, what are the things that you have to do? Or are there some things from a best practices perspective that you have to do to kind of keep those people in your organization?

Chris Georgas
Yeah, absolutely. First and foremost, sometimes we call it the leaky bucket, right? The organization wants to keep filling the bucket and kind of refining maybe the way they’re attracting and recruiting talent, but what they’re not doing oftentimes is paying attention to why the talent is ultimately leaving and not happy. So one, we recommend really understanding why that’s happening first and foremost. And then secondly, really working to engage strategies, looking at systems, looking at operations and processes that are going on in the organization, and making sure that they can connect for everybody and really beneficial to helping everybody be successful. The third thing I want to call out and I think this is probably a key differentiator, is that the responsibility is a two-way street. So as an organization, they are responsible and accountable to really put, you know, inclusive and equitable processes, systems, and practices in place from the talent management side, through the culture, operations, and business practices side. And just as importantly, it’s up to individuals, to be empowered to share what they need and why they need it. If those standards and practices aren’t meeting their needs, so it really has to be a two-way street, for it all to come together and really be successful. And the one thing I will say is, both sides are accountable underneath that, you know, at the end of the day that “a word,” accountability word, is critical, and so that functional leaders, people, leaders, all of that are very much aware of their role and the process, as well as the talent the individual contributors or diverse talent of any background at any level. They both will play a role in the success of this.

Reggie Ponder
Here’s my challenge, Chris. My challenge is because I agree that individuals need to be accountable, when they meet up against a system that is very, very challenging, and they’re still held accountable, that becomes from an employee or individual perspective becomes pretty daunting. And I’m not sure how you calibrate that, because everybody’s accountable. However, the culture of the company is the culture of the company.

Chris Georgas
Yeah, but if everybody is truly accountable, Reggie, people are coming together and collaborating to come up with how to make things better. So at the end of the day, if something’s not happening, if people are voicing their concerns, and the organization isn’t making any changes, then there’s a lack of accountability, that is not happening on the organization side. And on the flip side of that, if the organization thinks that they’ve got all, for all intents and purposes, the most inclusive practices and the most equitable practices, but nobody’s bothering to share or tell them in a way that really makes them and helps them understand what’s getting in the way, that’s not helpful. Sometimes people will just say “what’s the problem with communication around here, we have poor communication.” Okay, so what does that mean? There are a million ways to break down poor communication. So it’s got to be a two-way street, where people are being very, you know, detailed, they’re being very purposeful, and they’re being very honest about what is really getting in the way. And just as important, or maybe even more important, thinking about it from an opportunity. So how does that help me be able to contribute to my fullest? Or have the right communication? How’s that going to help me win? And how’s that gonna help the company win. And so always thinking about it from all lenses and angles.

Reggie Ponder
And see, I love this because it really doesn’t let anyone off the hook. It says, organization, you have some stuff to do, but it also says, individual, you have some stuff to do, some responsibility to the organization and responsibility to yourself. Responsibility to the overall process which we bring to the table. And I like that because it doesn’t say that it’s all on organization, or that it’s all on the individual.

Chris Georgas
Right. And you know, at the end of the day, people want change, yet they want everything to be changed for them. But really, and truly, we all need to be part of the change. That’s the only way it’s going to really happen in a way that’s practical, that’s inclusive, and really has all of the thoughts behind it. So that change can take place, take hold and be effective.

Reggie Ponder
Okay, we’re wrapping around the band here, we were talking about why diversity is not enough. And if there’s a company or organization, and they’re working on their DEI journey, and they’ve gotten to the point where maybe they’re checking a box, they’re getting the kind of diversity that they need, what else do they need then? We should be good, right, we should be good, we got the people we’re ready to go.

Chris Georgas
I mean, for all intents and purposes, organizations who are in that place, oftentimes aren’t optimally in that place. So they’ll, what we find is they’ll have segments of talents in certain roles, but not others. Or they’ll have segments of talent, you know, when they look at, you know, their retention or they look at their engagement, you know, they’re not kind of all on par with each other, you know, some groups might have, you know, lower perspectives, or lower favourability, or satisfaction than other groups. So, at the end of the day, just because you’ve got a representative sampling, doesn’t mean that there still isn’t room for growth and opportunity to be even better. And what we find, you know, is the diversity is the start, it’s not the outcome, we really look at unity as the outcome, how do we all come together because of our differences, to produce great results for the organization or the cause at hand. So at the end of the day, are we all contributing to this. And are all are we all creating something that’s bigger than all of us because we came together to create it. And so that’s what we really believe is important for our clients, is for them to really see a bigger place and a bigger opportunity and a bigger outcome, because they really maximized everybody and it was about a collaborative agenda versus one or two singular agenda, and I know you’re really biting at the bit to ask me your next question.

Reggie Ponder
No, I am not, I am not. But I am actually thinking in my mind about this whole issue of outcomes. You said diversity is the start. But we really are trying to get to outcomes. That is a nugget that I take away from what we’re talking about. And then the other thing, which we’re not going to get into today, which I’ll have to talk to you about at another time, is this whole issue of unity. You brought in this whole concept of unity, and how everybody has to work together. So you have me more than excited, I am so happy that you decided to join us for our first podcast episode. Thank you so much, Chris, I really appreciate it. If there were any nuggets on diversity that you want to leave, I want to leave the last word to you.

Chris Georgas
Thank you, Reggie, this was a pleasure. It’s always a pleasure to work with you and talk with you. I think the two biggest things that I would want you to know, as a takeaway of this conversation, is that diversity is just the start. It’s not the outcome and/or the end. And it really needs to be a driver, a true business driver for organization success. And let me say this differently, for greater organization success and outcome and impact. And there are a lot of ways that it can be measured and that it can be really integrated into the business naturally and the things that it already looks at. And so that’s what we love to help our clients really strive for and understand.