This is Becoming Inclusive from The Kaleidoscope Group, where we’re thinking differently about diversity, equity, and inclusion. For more empowered people at work. We’re committed to real change and that begins with real conversations. Welcome in.
This conversation has been lightly edited for clarity.
Reggie Ponder
Welcome to Becoming Inclusive. I’m Reggie Ponder, one of your hosts. And I’m also joined by Katherine Potts, who is the other host for this. This week, we are happy. I mean, excited because I get to talk to this guy. He’s been really busy lately. But when I get to talk to him, we have these just riveting discussions. And I’m so glad that you took the time out to talk with us today. This is Joe Gasparo. He is an Executive Consultant for The Kaleidoscope Group, but also the CEO and co-founder at the Center for Healthcare innovation. Welcome, Joe.
Joe Gasparo
Well, Reggie, it’s great to see you again. I’m glad to be back. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Great to see you as well. Yeah.
Katherine Potts
Yeah, happy to have you.
Reggie Ponder
And so Joe, offline, you and I, man, we get into so many different discussions. I don’t even know if we can get into it all here. But today, you brought us something I thought was really, really interesting. And I think our audience will find it interesting, too. So as we welcome you in, we want to welcome our audience in as well to talk about the importance of diversity in leadership. Before we get started, it seems to me, Joe, that this when we talk about diversity and leadership positions, that intuitively, it just kind of makes sense. So what’s the problem? Why are we really talking about this? And why are we still talking about this in 2022? Can I get your take on that?
Joe Gasparo
Well, that’s a great question, considering there’s been, you know, decades of empirical evidence that supports, diverse teams and being more profitable and more successful by you know, just about any measurable. But I think this has particular importance, over the last few years, as the US has really had sobering conversations and reckoning around systemic inequities and racism in the US, as we’ve seen from the fall from George Floyd, as well as just, you know, devastating COVID disparities, you know, corporate America has really turned their attention to this problem. That’s been a very pervasive and acute problem in our society for a long time. And I think, specifically when you look at leadership positions for corporate America and organizations, that’s where you see that the diversity tends to be its least and so a famous statistic is, you know, there’s typically more fortune 500 CEOs named John, or Bob than there are women in any given year. I think right now, we have a total of two CEOs. And throughout the entire history of the Fortune 500 list, there have been only 18 CEOs who identify as black. And really that peak number was in the Fortune 500 list in 2012, when there were six black men that made that list. So I think just looking at corporate America as a microcosm of what’s happening in broader society, I think that’s very indicative. I also think that is the, you know, as the US continues to tackle this problem and organizations commit to this, we really need to see that diversity, and at the boardroom, and CEO level is really in those leadership positions because those are the key decision-makers that are really driving the organization and making those key strategic decisions that ultimately impact the organization. And I think we see the most just alarming statistics when we look at really boardrooms and C suites of corporations in America.
Katherine Potts
So, Joe, where do you see companies starting? Where should they begin trying to address that?
Joe Gasparo
That’s a great question. I think just making a commitment. I think starting with board members, you know, as organizations try to develop plans and strategies for becoming more diverse. I think having individuals on the board that can help drive those decisions and offer management strategic input is important. I think it’s important for any organization to have a really robust and strong mentoring and sponsorship program, right. So this is important thinking about grooming the next generation of leaders, we see a lot of attention from organizations focusing on hiring, recruiting, attracting people of color and other marginalized groups. But you know, that stat, that mentorship component is really important sponsorship and professional development to make sure that organizations are grooming diverse leaders from within their ranks.
Reggie Ponder
So Joe here’s my problem is that I believe that diversity matters. However, there are some businesses that are doing pretty darn well. And I talked to our COO, Chris Georgas about this at some point as well, that there’s some business doing pretty darn well, and I think that what they would say, I know what they would say is, why do I need to change? I’m not really sure why you’re telling me? Am I changing for political correctness? Am I changing for the environment’s sake? Why do I need to change when we are doing well? And the other thing that I think people really, really push back on, I know, I got a lot to say on this one is that when we talk about diversity, it’s either racial or ethnic diversity. And it makes some folks upset. And I think rightfully so because they’re saying we’re not all the same either. We’re diverse. So you’re discounting that, that even though we have white men on the board, that we’re diverse, we come from diverse places we come from, we have diverse experiences, but you want to just kind of lump us in. And I think that that’s unfair. Any thoughts on that?
Joe Gasparo
Well, let me answer the first part, which I think directly relates to the second. So, you know, one might ask, why do we need to change things are going well, the way they are? Well, you know, look at demographics in America. And people often think that, like, there’s some impending demographic shift that’s years off? No, it’s happening. In fact, 20 years from now, by the year 2043, half of America will be People of Color. So I think, you know, just from that basic standpoint, is just prepping for the future. What do consumers and customers look like no matter what, what business you’re in, so demographics in the US, are really rapidly and profoundly changing? So while you may be doing well, now, I think it’s important to look at the future. And I think that’s always, that should really be the lead foot when it’s when it comes to diversity, it should really be about, you know, as an organization, how can we better sell our products or services to the market. And so viewing it from that angle can be a little bit different than doing it from maybe a more altruistic angle, or saying, you know, Hey, we should get more diverse, because it’s the right thing to do. We know the right thing to do changes over time. And it’s subjective, but just, you know, purely looking at what’s happening in America from just a demographic lens, we’re going through these greater and more dramatic demographic shifts than we’ve ever seen. And so let me answer the second part.
Really quick, Joe. I’m wondering, too, I understand the importance of sort of like, the why, right. But some also may ask, what was it? And by what, what is it going to do for me? What’s the business impact for me wanting to look at this more, and look at this more closely, and make more changes? And I’m already bigger than what I’m already doing?
Joe Gasparo
Yeah, well, I think it again, it comes down to knowing the market being able to relate to the marketplace. You know, let’s take diverse for diverse boardroom diversity, right, having those different perspectives and folks that come from different walks of life and different genders, different races, different ethnicities. You know, the answer to the second part of your question, Reggie, a group of any, 100, homogenous individuals is going to have cognitive diversity within that group, right? But, you know, a group of white men just aren’t simply not going to have those experiences of women or people of color, folks in the LGBT community. And I think that, again, it’s directly related to those demographics, it just comes down to, you know, I really like to simplify, it’s just knowing, you’re knowing your market, who are we going to be selling our products to, you know, today and tomorrow. And I think that that’s important, I think, you know, particularly at the boardroom level, having that strategic wisdom, guidance, and input can help organizations prepare for those shifts, and ultimately be able to better respond to the needs of, you know, a more diverse consumer base.
Reggie Ponder
I was reading, I love that Joe, I was reading just yesterday, actually, I was watching something I’ve been reading and watching so much so I can remember I’m getting all confused. But I was watching something where David Oyelowo, the actor was talking about how they got the movie Selma made and the way in which he got it made was that he had the fight, and there wasn’t a black executive, I think they’re who actually fought for it. So it lends some credence to this to the thing that you’re talking about in terms of having the leadership in those positions. Because a lot of times, people the way that people were looking at what they call Black movies is they look at them as a genre and Black movies with black folks are not a genre. It’s a movie like any other movie, but like, well will people go see that? And you have to have some diverse talent there to say, this is a story just like any other story. Let’s put that out there. If it’s worthy, if it’s a worthy story, let’s talk about the story where the not if the ethnicity of it makes sense per se, so I really think that relates to what you’re talking about in terms of having that representation there.
Joe Gasparo
Right. In every industry, every industry subset, you know, every nook and cranny of the market is different, you know, take healthcare, for instance, is my area. One of the things that we’re seeing in healthcare is, you know, the industry as a whole is trying to make clinical trials more diverse and inclusive, trying to welcome more communities of color into research and clinical trials for drug testing. And so one way to do that is to increase the number of black physicians or brown physicians or those diverse patients that you’re recruiting for clinical trials, having more people of color as primary investigators, research coordinators, I…
Reggie Ponder
Gotta stop you, I got to stop you, Joe. You just said something, you said, having more black doctors, why does that matter? We just have a trial. I just need the black people to come in, and, and be part of the trial. But you said something about doctors say some more, please.
Joe Gasparo
Yep. So its data and statistics show that you know, in healthcare, most patients prefer to be seen by a physician or nurse that shares the same demographic traits. So, you know, that’s not for everyone, but for the majority. And so as we look at something complex clinical trials, and trying to convince a patient, explain what a clinical trial is standard of care why it’s important, why participation is important, you know, that can sometimes be done in healthcare. Where communities of color, and rightfully so, have lower confidence in healthcare and have, you know, historically high levels of mistrust due to a whole litany of factors. And so, just specifically relating it to that example, having physicians that are, are black or Latin to be able to relate to those patients that we’re trying to recruit, again, patients just feel more comfortable. So, you know, that’s an example of where I think, whether it’s leadership or board members, it helped organizations, you know, without having a more diverse leadership, and C suite, it might there might not be organization might not place an emphasis on trying to basically try to develop and recruit and hire more physicians of color or RNs of color, clinical research coordinators. So again, I think it all comes down to 10. With a board or C suite, it’s what are our blind spots, right? If we have a very homogenous board of white individuals, again, we’re going to be very limited, I think, in terms of what we’re going to be able to do for selling to the masses.
Katherine Potts
So would you say, Joe, that having a diverse board, diverse leadership impacts, for example, in health care impacts the experience of the patient, for example? And then what could that do for the hospitals, for example? Because they see, okay, I can relate to this board. Right, I see myself on this board, I’m black, I see someone that’s black on the board, how do you think that affects their experience? And how do they look at the hospital?
Joe Gasparo
Um, you know, yeah, I think that as I mentioned, data shows, there’s just a greater level of comfort, I think, particularly in something, the specific example I give with clinical trials, I think there’s a unique, historical legacy there. And I think that for, you know, patients of color, or really anyone, it’s important to be interacting with folks that look and think like us, healthcare, I think is no different. So, no, while a patient might not look at the pictures in the hallway of the, you know, the board chairs, I think organizations that are really taking diversity seriously and have diverse folks in key leadership positions to drive those conversations, strategies, and tactics that impact patients. I think that’s where it really comes to fruition.
Reggie Ponder
I love that Joe. So the first thing, I think that the big takeaway that I get from you, firstly, is this issue of representation matters, is that we, we have to have that representation. But I think that you are going further than that, and saying that representation is not just to be politically correct, to just have some people hear that representation is to really help the company from a market perspective. And that because demographics are changing, because there might be other business opportunities that representation should help you from these blind spots. And I love that the word that you said blind spots for the first is the representation but the reason a representation is there is to understand these blind spots.
Joe Gasparo
Absolutely. And I would say that, you know, it’s not for political correctness or just to do it because it’s, it’s an invoke or it’s the summertime is a sign of the times. You know, I think it is important, it’s the “why” it’s an important question. Why do we value diversity, you know, we can leverage diversity to help us better deliver services or sell our products? You know, considering that the market is rapidly changing, there always needs to be that intentionality. And I definitely think that you know, it should be related to, to the bottom line. Quite frankly, and that’s why organizations, that’s why they exist, or, you know, either bottom line or if it’s nonprofit, the mission or impact, there needs to be some intentionality behind it. Why are we becoming diverse? Why are we trying to groom executives that might step into C suite positions or recruit diverse, diverse board members, it comes really comes back to, you know, the market is changing in some demographics, in some markets, it might not as changes changed rapidly as others. But let’s, as an organization, be able to better understand this particular market who we’re serving demographic changes. And also, I think, you know, having diverse boards and C suites also helps with organizations, you know, hiring, recruiting, attracting, hiring and promoting people of color women, other marginalized groups,
Katherine Potts
during talks about mentorship. And so I’m sort of curious, most companies will do you know, your annual review, right, that might be your only opportunity to talk about where you’re at where you’re going, where you were, what can that look like moving forward to where it’s a little bit more impactful, and you are to what you’ve said previously, grooming future talent to kind of fit where you’re looking for the company to move towards?
Joe Gasparo
Yeah, so I think for a lot of organizations, you know, this could take the shape of employee resource groups or affinity groups where they offer mentoring components. You know professional development for any organization is critically important. It’s important to always think about the next generation of leaders, in many organizations, those those who are best poised to lead the organization or those that are, you know, from within the know, the organization Well, so, as part of any organization that thinks about succession planning, and professional development of staff, you know, there’s going to be good programs in place, such as employee resource groups, or different opportunities to mentor executives, you know, and I also think, in the lack of any formal mentoring programs, you know, organizations, particularly communities of color, or folks from marginalized communities who are in executive positions who are in key leadership positions, you know, it’s important for those folks to make themselves available to others within the organization as well. But I think, you know, mainly organizations need to think about professional development for their staff. And a mentoring component is a great way, especially when you get up to the executive level. And Mentoring can be, you know, very important, I think that’s a great way for organizations to really think about grooming the next generation of leaders from within
Reggie Ponder
that, so. So, Joe, all this stuff sounds good, but it’s not easy. I’m a tech company, I have three founders is me, and my two friends were white, young, young, white guys. And we started up a business. As the business grows, we hire, we try to be the best that we can be. But, and I leadership positions, those are the three leadership positions we don’t have, we’re not gonna have any more, we’re not just gonna expand our leadership, just expand our leadership. So are there any thoughts there from a leadership perspective? Um…
Joe Gasparo
Well, so, as organizations grow, I’m assuming revenues are increasing, the organization’s getting bigger. So, you know, the founders of an organization are always going to be the same. But as organizations grow again, I’m going to relate it directly back to the marketplace and having workforce executives and board members, and those that may comprise the organization somewhat, you know, matching who we’re selling our products do. So it’s not necessarily about, you know, again, creating a position that without intentionality, you know, assuming the organization’s going to grow, there’s always going to be opportunities to bring in other folks, and particularly diverse folks to help an organization succeed.
Reggie Ponder
And this is what this is where I guess the reason I brought that up, this is where my pet peeve is, is that in business, when we make business decisions, we sit down and we look at everything and make these tough business decisions. But when it comes to diversity, it seems like we kind of throw our hands up and say, Oh, that’s difficult to do, or I don’t really want to touch that. And, and really stray away from the business impact and because this is what you’re talking about the business impact of leadership of diversity at the leadership position, and I think we kind of throw that away about the business impact. And I said, how come you can’t hear me say, oh, it’s politically correct. It’s nice to do these ads. But what I’m getting from you is that it’s really about the business impact – how can I grow my business? How can I sustain my business? If my demographics are changing, I need to do some things to sustain it. If this is changing, I might need to do some things to get some new customers, all that type of stuff. And it just seems to really be about business impact.
Joe Gasparo
Yeah, and relating it solely to business impact, I also think gives it more legs in some ways. You know, you think about accountability, right? Measurable metrics, whether we’re looking at revenues, or whatever you’re measuring, you know, I think measuring and holding folks accountable, is ultimately how you get things done within an organization. So kind of approaching it from again, from, you know, politically correct to this is the right thing to do. You know, that’s fine, that works. And that works for a lot of folks. But I think when it really comes to making the case, you know, for sustainability and, and, and long term transformation, yes, it needs to be the business impact, it needs to be understanding that, again, demographics are just rapidly shifting. And in order to be able to respond to these shifts that are, are already happening, I think it’s important for organizations to look at that from the business dimension from the ability to understand the marketplace and sell goods and products to those consumers.
Reggie Ponder
I love that, Kat?
Katherine Potts
It just makes me think I know, in the beginning, Joe, you were talking about how the last two years have been a really prevalent topic, right? You know, and we’re kind of going into 2022. And there’s been a lot of talk around companies, individuals feeling kind of fatigued by this topic, right? How do we keep people motivated? Do you think to continue making this a priority within companies?
Joe Gasparo
Well, I think, you know, that fatigue. From many folks that I’ve talked to, you know, that’s something that people of color, and women and folks in marginalized communities, they have to wear that all the time. The fatigue might be new, but it’s not new for those that are experiencing that, that it might be new for, you know, for white individuals, or for folks that, you know, are having new conversations around race and systemic racism in America. That fatigue thing is I would contend that most of you know, I don’t want to speak for anyone else. But, that’s something that communities of color have to wear all the time, I’m sure it’s very tiring for them. And so we’re all a part of racial relations in America, no matter what our race, we’re not, we’re not immune from it. We’re part of it. We’re part of the very complex, you know, social nature of race in America. And so we should feel fatigued, that means we’ve been talking about it. Wow,
Katherine Potts
I love that. That’s amazing.
Reggie Ponder
I do too, Joe. And so we kind of run around the band and someone puts you on the spot, Joe, as if, if no, I listened to the first 19 minutes of this. And you were to tell them three things that you want them to know about the importance of diversity and leadership position, what would be those three things that would be important?
Joe Gasparo
I think it’s number one, important to understand that the market and consumers and those that we sell products and services are rapidly changing. Number two, I think it’s important for organizations to understand that to look inside the organization and make sure that there’s you know, robust mentoring, employee resource groups, resources within the organization to help them executives, and then three, to look outside of the organization as well. And also to think about, the way that we hire and the way that folks hire and perhaps shifting that from looking at, you know, maybe what, what someone has accomplished to maybe what they can achieve moving forward based on, you know, their lives and their personal experiences.
Reggie Ponder
Joe look, man, every time, I have such a great time talking to you. And we put Kat in the group with us today. I’m so glad that she joined as well. And this whole issue of the importance of diversity in leadership positions that I guess the last point that I’d like to make is that when we talk about diversity a lot of times, and you made sure that you didn’t do this is a lot of time,s people look at that as black and white, black people and white people. And you made sure to talk about LGBTQ, women was a big thing you talked about as well as our Latin X brothers and sisters as well. And it expands beyond that for sure, but I’m really glad that you talked about it with multiple dimensions because a lot of times It comes out to this black and white thing, which is so much more than that.
Joe Gasparo
Yeah, it is. And I relate this again to anyone, anybody from a marginalized or underrepresented community.
Reggie Ponder
Excellent. Well, look, the name, the title of this is Becoming Inclusive. And Joe Gasparo talked today about the importance of diversity in leadership positions. This is only the beginning of that conversation because there’s a lot more, there were some facts and figures that Joe gave us as well. And you will probably be like, I didn’t catch that. I didn’t get that that’s okay. Don’t worry about it. We’ll have him back on because maybe we probably need to have one with all the facts and figures. But I didn’t want to be so boring just to have facts and figures and facts and figures. But I know for some of you all, you want to know what those are. It doesn’t become meaningful until you actually see the numbers. And so we’ll have Joe back on to talk about that. Again. I’m Reggie Ponder, that’s Joe Gasparo, and that is Katherine Potts, thank you again for joining Becoming Inclusive, and we’ll see you all next time.
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